Transcript

Kylie: Hello hello everyone and welcome back to the Hormone Hub. In this week’s episode, we have got a special guest. We have just had a lot of fun on her podcast, Welcome to the other side. And I would love to introduce you to Meg Gluckman. So Meg is a coach for moms after divorce. So she’s harnessed lessons from her own challenging divorce and co-parenting journey to help other moms, you know, create lives that they really love.

 She lives on an island outside of Seattle with her two kids and is really good at growing Rhubarb, loves reading adventure tales with her kids and doing skinny dips in Puget Sounds, have I pronounced that correctly? 

Meg: Yes. Do you call it skinny dipping in Australia? 

Kylie: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I would imagine skinny dipping in Australia would be a whole lot warmer than skinny dipping just outside Seattle. 

Meg: Probably. I’m not sure. It’s cold. 

Kylie: I [00:01:00] bet. I have no doubt that it’s cold. That’s all right. Ice baths are all the thing. 

Meg: That’s right. 

Kylie: But yeah, Meg, I was so excited to invite you onto the show because I know a lot of our listeners are,, you know, have been through separation or going through separation and divorce, and I know just in my own friendship circle, there’s a lot of mess going on and, you know, and I think as, as women, you know, we are left to sort of pick up the pieces with the kids and, you know, we still need to kind of get our own life together.

So, you know, I think this will be a really good, you know, great episode and I think it’s gonna help a lot of women as well just, you know, to know that you’re not alone either and, you know, you can come throughout the other side. So why don’t you sort of tell us a bit about your story and then you know, what you do as well and how, how you help other women.

Meg: Yeah, I got divorced [00:02:00] just over five years ago, and at that point I had a six-year-old and a two-year-old. And I remember just feeling completely overwhelmed by the whole process and really unsure about what the future held, financially what the future held, would I ever be in another relationship and what was it gonna be like?

I had been a stay-at-home mom, and so primarily I was the one taking care of the kids, and now we were splitting custody, so the kids were halftime with their dad and halftime with me, and so there was a lot of change. A lot of sudden, sudden change and a lot of tears and a lot of fear about what was, what was coming down and just so much unknown.

I mean, I think that’s the biggest piece that’s so scary about going through divorce is [00:03:00] you don’t know how it’s all gonna turn out unless you’ve done it a few times before that, except which happens nowadays. But if this is your first, it’s just so uncertain, and what I experienced was that my mind would just go down these rabbit holes of fear and my stress would be off the charts and I wasn’t sleeping and I could hardly be present with my kids because I was constantly thinking about what was gonna happen in the divorce proceedings or, you know, what was the next thing my ex was going to say or text me. And, and so even when I had my kids, I couldn’t actually enjoy being with them because I was so stressed about not knowing what was gonna happen. Yeah.

 And my co-parent and I, my ex, we, [00:04:00] we managed through the divorce and the first year or so pretty well. And then I really started recognizing that I did not want to keep being the same kind of co-parent that I had been when I had been married, which was essentially that I had taken on so much of the responsibilities of co-parenting and I had done as, as we now use the term often, right, the mental and emotional labor yeah, for, for raising, raising these kids. And so I started choosing a lot more for myself what was really gonna be right and choosing what I needed in order to launch my career and, and making these different choices. And that’s when a lot of tension started really erupting for us in the co-parenting because suddenly I felt like I should be on equal footing [00:05:00] with him on decision making. And he wasn’t used to that. And so there was a lot, lot of tension that we had to work through and multiple rounds of going through court and so forth to, to get where we are now, which is a fabulous place. And so I work with moms who are either going through divorce or after divorce to help them get to this place that I’m in right now too, where co-parenting feels easy, it feels secure.

It feels like I’ve created the life that I really want. I have the financial stability I want. I have the relationship with my kids that I want, and I have the relationship with my co-parent that I want. 

Yeah. 

Kylie: No, that’s great. And I think it does, it totally shifts your whole identity, you know, and it’s, it’s a huge adjustment.

And then, yeah, and I think it doesn’t matter if your kids are younger, in their [00:06:00] twenties. I was actually talking to a friend of mine who’s a school teacher, and she said that she sees a lot, she’s a high school teacher. When the youngest child finishes school, like high school, that’s when, you know, like they hang in there until that youngest child finishes school and then all of a sudden it’s over.

So, I talk to a lot of women who are, yeah, their, their children are sort of ready to fly the nest as well. So they’ve kind of got this empty nest, you know, on the horizon, but all of a sudden they’re alone as well. 

Meg: Mm-hmm. So it’s, yes, that’s, it’s super common nowadays to have empty nest divorces.

Yeah. 

Kylie: Well, you know, I’ve got five or six years of schooling left. Who knows. It’s alright. My husband doesn’t listen to the podcast.

Meg: Yeah, but you’re totally right that no matter what age, No matter which phase of our [00:07:00] life that we go through, it’s very discombobulating. There is a period when, when you just feel completely unmoored, even if it’s your decision, even if it’s your choice to, to have the divorce, it still has shifted so much.

And so a lot of folks that I talk to will talk about like just this period of like so much, it’s like a little rowboat, you know, out there without, without any oars, just like bobbing in the ocean. Like I don’t, I don’t, I feel ungrounded. Yeah. And slowly the new identity starts coming in. Slowly we start making decisions about, oh, well this is actually what I want my life to look like. 

Kylie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s, yeah, there’s a lot to work through. So when there’s so much uncertainty, sort of like during and after a divorce, what can help sort of women, you know, worry less? Yeah. Or like where do they start? 

Meg: Yeah. I [00:08:00] always suggest getting very specific about what they’re worrying about.

So, so often what happens is our mind just kind of spirals out around like, oh, I’m not gonna, like, my financial future is, is gonna be horrible. Like, I don’t, I’m never gonna be able to retire, or I’m not gonna have enough money for the bills, or I’m never gonna be in another relationship. And our brain kind of is just, it’s like just splatter paint. I don’t know. It’s, it’s going in all different directions. Yeah. And so what I always en encourage folks to do is like, okay, let’s get really specific. What, what is one worry that you have? And let’s, let’s dive into that and address that. Right? And when we bring our, bring our brain, and make it be specific. Oftentimes this involves like actually write down, you write down like what is it that worries you? Yeah. So that [00:09:00] we’re, we’re making our brain be specific. Then we can get to something that we can solve, right? Because what I always say is like worrying is useful in that it might flag something that’s an issue for us that we’re concerned about.

Say the financial piece. Right. Okay. So I’m starting to worry about my financial future. Okay. That’s, that’s good. Like it’s flagging that I’m concerned about it. It’s valid and now it’s valid. Right? And now we don’t just worry, but we, we take action. Right? Okay. Like what specifically are we worried about?

Am I going to be able to pay my bills for the next three months? Okay. Let’s get very specific. Like, will you be able to pay your bills? Yeah, let’s go, let’s get in there. What are all the ways that you could make sure that you have enough money to pay your bills? Yes, and we, and we come up with a plan. And so either we get to a place where we need a plan. Okay, this is my plan for how I’m going to pay my bills. Or we get to a place where it’s [00:10:00] like, actually I’ve, I have money for the next two years. It’s really not an issue that I’d be able to pay my bill. Right? And so then we’re able to say like, okay, brain, thank you for trying to, you know, keep me safe, but I’m actually totally fine and this is not something that I need to worry about right now. 

Kylie: Yes. Yeah. I love that because that’s the thing, like anxiety and stress, like it’s our perception and it’s our brain that just goes in 600 different directions. And worrying about things that may not actually be real.

They may be real, but they may not be as well, or it may not be as bad as we think, or it may not be that that big overwhelming monster that we’ve got going on. So, yeah. Yeah. I love that. Just, yeah. Break it down, ground it, and then you’ve got a plan. Okay. Or, or, or you don’t have enough money, so do, can I borrow?

Can I get a second job? Can I do overtime? Can I, what do I need to do? You know, can I cut back at expenses? So, yeah. Yeah. There’s [00:11:00] ways around it when you break it down. But yeah, totally. But yeah, and then we’ll just slide our perimenopause and menopause, like panic hormones in there as well. So you know, we’ve got a lot going on.

Meg: They’re, right, they’re just turning up the volume. So, so there might still be that, that really tangible thing, there probably is a very tangible thing at the root of it. And then we have this hormone shift that like here, just like makes it so much louder, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I’ll say that if the worries, you know, it’s not just financial, but the worries might be, well, my co-parent is going to do something and that’s going to worry me. I find like, again, it’s so helpful to just go down that path and pretend like, okay, so if that did happen, yeah, what do you want to do? Yeah, what’s your plan? And then you just like shelf it, right?

Like you just file that away. That’s my plan [00:12:00] if he or she does this thing, I will do this. Okay, now I have a plan. I don’t need to worry about it anymore. 

Kylie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I just think that’s such great advice, you know, to, to kind of ground everything and you know, because yeah, we always think, or we tend to go for the worst case scenario, but chances are that worst case scenario may or may not ever happen.

And then, yeah, if we’ve got it written down and we’ve got a plan for that worst case scenario, and I think that almost gives us a to-do list, if that was to happen. 

Meg: Completely. 

Yeah, completely. Yeah. And what I also find is that we think that we’re going to the worst case scenario so often, but unless we intentionally sit down and like make our brain focused, our brain doesn’t automatically go all the way to the worst case scenario.

It often just thinks like, this big bad thing is [00:13:00] gonna happen. Right? So if, if my ex is unhappy about a decision I make this big bad thing is gonna happen and, and then we just stay in fear versus like actually going through, okay, what is actually the worst case scenario. Okay. The worst case scenario, maybe he takes me back to court to review the parenting plan. Maybe that’s my worst case scenario. Okay. What would I do then? Yeah. What would I do then? What would I do then? Yeah, we just work through it. 

Kylie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I love that. And you know, and I think, you know, working with a coach like yourself, you know, because it is when you’re trying to figure that out on your own, because you can’t see it when you’re in the weeds.

Yeah. But, you know, for, to have a coach who’s sort of one step back who’s experienced that herself, you know, to then guide you through that whole process like that is, that’s invaluable. Yeah, I’ve already passed the [00:14:00] details onto a few of my girlfriends. 

Meg: Yeah. Can I share, can I share one other analogy that I really love about worrying too?

 So much I think of our worrying during the divorce or shortly after the divorce, especially if we’re still co-parenting, has to do with like what we fear the other person is, is going to do or say, or, you know, act like. Yeah. And, and the analogy that I give folks is we’re kind of like sitting up in a, in a castle watch tower.

Like if you imagine like just your eyes peeking out of this like old castle watch tower, like waiting for the attack. Right. Like we’re constantly on watch. What’s, what’s, what are they gonna do next? You know, what’s, what’s the next text or the next voicemail or move from them. Yeah. And we’re frozen.

[00:15:00] Right. And we’re kind of in, you know, in, in your territory, right. We’re, we’re in this constant cortisol stress response. Right. Because we’re just so worried about what could happen next. Versus the person who is outliving their life. They are on an adventure, right? Imagine someone on a trail somewhere and, and they’ve got this great destination in mind, and there’s gonna be hurdles that come up, right?

Like those are the things that their ex might throw in their path. You know, there’s a little quicksand or there’s a little, you know, bridge they have to cross. And they deal with those things and then they just keep moving because they’re more focused on the path that they are on, the destination they wanna get to, than the individual obstacles.

So what I see is often folks who are really stressed and overwhelmed and worrying a lot in their co-parenting [00:16:00] relationship are stuck in that guard tower. Right. They’re stuck always focused on the other person. Versus when we can get out and we can just focus on creating the life that we want.

When we are spending so much more energy, like designing and enjoying the life that we have, there’s a whole lot less worrying that happens. Yeah. 

Yes. 

Kylie: I love that. And it’s so true. It’s, you know, it, it, it’s all about sort of, you know, and I, I say this to my teenage kids too, you know, stay on your own path, you know?

Yeah. Just worry about your own path. Don’t worry about what that person’s doing or that person’s doing, or they’re wearing or they’re going, or, you know, just if you are true to your path, you’re gonna be okay. Yeah. So it’s, yeah. But yeah, to get caught up with, worrying that constant, you know, what are they gonna do?

What are they gonna say? You know, are the kids gonna eat right? Are the kids, you [00:17:00] know, got what they need for school. Have they got, you know, all the things. We worry about all that stuff because, and I think it’s, you know, is it a mum thing? Is it because we’re so used to taking care of everyone else and micromanaging everyone else that to sort of step back and kind of allow that other person, or, you know, and there’s a bit of trust there as well, that they can, they’ve got it, and then it actually frees up to sort of flip the, the, the framing of that, you know, actually that frees your time up. You now have 50% of your time back where you can focus on you.

So, you know, that’s, uh, you know, for your own self-care and you know, to find your own path, whatever that looks like. 

Meg: Yeah, and I think the first thing I always say to moms when they’re thinking a lot about how their kids are doing over at the other house, of course you’re worried, like you love them.

Yeah. [00:18:00] Like, First off, that’s a totally human natural response. Your babies are away from you, right. And you worry. Okay, so let’s just ground first in that, that’s totally normal. And it’s because you love them. Yeah. Okay. And then you were saying you have to trust the other person that, you know, they’re gonna take care of things.

And what I say sometimes, sometimes that’s a really hard reach, is, is to trust. 

But what I do think is I can trust that, you know, my kids are gonna be okay. Like even if, you know, he forgets to bring ’em to baseball practice, even if they forget their lunch at home.

Even if they sit around and they, you know, watch videos all day and eat junk food. They’re actually still gonna be okay. Yeah. [00:19:00] Yeah. It, it isn’t necessarily how I want to parent, right? But they’re gonna be okay. And I still get to create the home that I want for them when they’re with me. And that’s where my power is.

Yeah. 

Kylie: And I think that’s a really important point. So, yeah. Yeah. How can sort of co-parenting improve if your, you know, ex is being difficult or challenging or not wanting to change. Yeah. And, and not quite on the same path as you. 

Meg: Yes. Yeah. I, I like to tell folks like, your ex will change when they want to change.

Just like you change when you want to change, not because somebody else says, now is what I need you to change your habits or your behavior. Right? Yeah. We, we like to do everything on our own timeline, for sure, for sure. There’s a few different [00:20:00] ways that it can improve dramatically and when I think about how you feel about co-parenting, how you, how that relationship feels to you.

It’s, it’s really about kind of how you’re thinking about it. Right. So there aren’t, there isn’t something necessarily tangible or concrete that needs to change. It’s, it’s our framing within ourselves that changes and then changes how we feel and can bring us so much peace and calm about it.

So the first thing that can change is you can expect them to behave exactly how they behave. So oftentimes folks will come in and they’ll just be like, wait till you hear what he did, and I’ll be like, Does it surprise you? No, he does [00:21:00] this every single week. Okay. No surprises. No surprises. So instead of being surprised or outraged by something that is clearly a pattern, we start predicting that that is how they are going to act.

That is how they are going to show up, right? And then we design our life knowing that. And so this is, this is about accepting the reality, accepting reality of how our co-parent shows up. It’s not the same as condoning reality, right? It’s not the same as saying, this is how I, I’m so glad you know, they, they get six chocolate bars on the day before they come back to me or whatever. Like, it’s not about that, but it’s just accepting, okay, this is the reality. I don’t have power to change it. What, what do I have power over? Yeah. Okay. I have power over designing the time when they come back to me.

Yeah. [00:22:00] How are we gonna spend that day? Okay. I know they’re gonna be coming on a sugar high and they’re gonna be, you know, sleep deprived. How do I wanna construct that day when they come back to me so that it can feel good. Right. So that’s the first thing is like really expecting them to behave the way they keep showing you that they do behave. Right. Another, uh, principle I guess you could say of, or a way to improve how you feel about co-parenting is really taking some time to decide what kind of co-parent do you wanna be? How do you want to show up in it? Because just like the guard tower that I was describing before, so often we are in this very reactionary, like we’re waiting for the next thing that happens and then we’re gonna react versus deciding like, this is the kind of co-parent that I wanna show up and this is how I wanna be independent of how the other person [00:23:00] acts, right? So for, for me, for an example, it was important to me that I respond promptly to any sort of communication from my ex. Like just, you know, ideally within a few hours if there’s a request about kids or a question or something like that, it was important to me that I respond promptly.

Yeah. He’s not a prompt responder. That is not important to him. Right. But I get to decide how I feel good showing up in this relationship. Right. I get to decide how I talk about him in front of the kids. I get to decide, you know, how I, uh, process and respond to requests. Like I get to make those choices and not allow him to decide how I show up, but, but to really decide for myself. 

Kylie: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s, that’s really important because you can control what you, the way you [00:24:00] respond. Yeah. You know, you can’t control anyone else and you can, can’t control their behavior. You can’t control, you know, what they say, what they do, how they respond.

You can’t control that, but you can control you. So yeah, I think if you decide that you are going to hold yourself with integrity and yeah, you show up as the mom, you know, and I think regardless of whether your kids are little or you know, they’re adult kids who don’t even live at home, I think this is equally important because you know you are connected to their father. Or, you know, that other parent forever, but you get to control the way you respond. And, you know, I, I couldn’t imagine in the beginning that, you know, that’s easy by any means, but, you know, I think as you, you sort of take those steps to sort of redefine who you are as a person, you know, as opposed to who you are in a marriage, there’s, there’s lots of choices and I guess that will, you know, that I can see that that [00:25:00] would be very empowering as well once that, that realization clicks in as well. 

Meg: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, and I think one, one last piece is really to separate how I co-parent with my, my ex is independent of how I choose to show up as a parent with my kids. My relationship with my kids is a hundred percent my responsibility. Like no matter how he talks about me to them. No matter what they do over there versus what they do at my house. Like I have full responsibility for this relationship.

 And I think a lot of folks go through a phase where they’re really concerned about what their relationship with their kids is gonna look like going forward because of the impact of whatever is going on with their ex. And I just encourage them to always come back to like, you are in charge of this [00:26:00] relationship. Right. You, you take responsibility, you show up the way that you wanna show up as a parent. And that’s what’s, that’s what’s gonna build the relationship long term. 

Kylie: Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s a really, a really great message. So thank you for, for sharing that. Amazing. Yeah. Well, yeah, certainly lots of food for thought there and I think that’s gonna help a lot of, you know, women and I’m certainly passing, I have a few girlfriends in mind that I will, shall be passing this onto, you know, who are going through a really tough time and it’s, you know, it’s not pretty and, you know, when you know both parties and you’re like, well, you don’t normally behave like that and I’ve known you for, you don’t normally behave like that. So yeah. You guys, what’s going on? So, but I think you’ve given some really sage advice that I could equally pass to both parties as well.

So I thank you for that. Yeah. So Meg where can people, you know, find out more [00:27:00] about you and how can you know if people want some more support that are going through this, how can they work with you? 

Meg: Yeah, well definitely come over and listen to our episode over on my podcast, Welcome to the Other Side, and I also, my website is meggluckman.com and I’m on Instagram and Facebook, and I have a lot of resources on my website for moms going through divorce and around co-parenting. I have a wonderful fearless co-parenting class that anybody can grab off the website. Yeah.

I’d love to chat with folks and feel free to reach out. 

Kylie: Yeah, so we’ll put all of Meg’s details on how you can reach her in the show notes. And she’s also very kindly gifted us the Chill Mom’s Manifesto, so we’ll be putting the link to that in the website as well. So you know, if you, going through divorce or [00:28:00] not, I think we all could do with a bit of chill mum sometimes. So pop that all in the show notes for you. So thank you so much, Meg, for, for coming along today. I think this has been, yeah, really good conversation to have and probably one overdue for our audience because I know it impacts a lot of women, so Yeah.

Yeah. Very timely. Very timely interview, so thank you. 

Meg: Wonderful. It’s been my pleasure. I hope it helps folks, and I hope it helps folks even if you know someone who’s going through a divorce and these kind of ideas or concepts you might be able to share with them. 

Kylie: Yeah, yeah. Or just even tough periods in relationships too, so. 

Meg: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. 

Kylie: Yeah. All right, well, thanks so much, Meg, and thank you everyone for listening, and we’ll see you on the next episode of the Hormone Hub.